i couldn't agree more

feezzarinni - August 23, 2008

and of course we know that this is a fairy tale because "lived happily ever after" does not exist in the real world. Jack and his cow will also eventually die. oh but wait, maybe there is a "lived happily ever after" if what religion says is correct and there is/are a God/Gods.

Kenny - August 23, 2008

and what might the cow represent?

dude21 - August 24, 2008

to many atheists its the "holy cow" known as science

Kenny - August 24, 2008

Yes let's act like the greatest mass starvations in the 20th century didn't take place as a result of an arrogant trust in human achievement [i.e. China/ Russia/ North Korea]. Your beef (or in this case, beans) should be with state religion in so far as the state makes itself the soul of the people. If the state becomes the force that drives creativity, spirituality,culture, AND scientific achievement then that state's people will flounder as a result. As a Christian, I am sorry for all the problems that we have helped to create, those we've ignored, and those we've smilingly approved. But I believe a fundamental principle within Christianity is that you shouldn't have a blind faith in what you believe in and then wish for it to just work for you. You must conform to that thing which is guides you. I believe everyone is made to follow Christ's example, but that doesn't mean stop doing science. It wasn't a mishap that God created the universe through Christ with a few words and then Christ was born on earth, became a carpenter, was called the living word and the author of Faith. I would agree that religion is a pretty simple thing to dismiss, but faith is quite another. Your boy in this hypothetical comic placed his faith in many things and you presume he came out better as a result. Your focus on the material seems to justify his action but there is more beneath the surface. In some ways he was deceived (his father disowned him, he thought he would have approved), in other ways he deceived someone else (he sold the 'false religion' for his own profit...3 beans for a calf!). This would make him a thief. Also Jack took what wasn't his and traded it-twice a thief. What did the father do? Banished his son out of anger- a pretty foul thing, he also let his family starve. Finally jack put his faith in the man who sold him the cow, in his own ability to raise the cow, along with many other related things that would have been phenomenal for a young kid to think he could accomplish.

I guess my point is that if this is your view of religion or Christianity in particular my sincere suggestion would be to try and understand or investigate who God is and what his will is in history.

If you what to know something about say intercultural communication you don't go to the most published professor in the field and then dismiss his life's work because he only knows 2 languages, divorced a foreign wife, and has the most awkward body language. A person's work can have inherent value separate from the individual. This is what makes ad hominem arguments valueless.

However, when stories become arguments for or against something they start to lose their value and beauty. I don't know much about post-modern art, so maybe this isn't true anymore. I think we find a message's connection to its messenger (rather than its force of logic) to be one of the most interesting things about the message. Whether we are studying a sonnet by

Jaded - August 24, 2008

I love you and want to have nonreligious babies with you. (Check my url and see what I mean. we need all the help we can get. Thanx.)

Phil E. Drifter - August 24, 2008

Kenny: Science isn't "holy," it just works. Nice try with old Pascal's Wager, though. What if there REALLY IS an invisible magic unicorn who wants to give me candy and presents all my life? Nah, I think I'll take reality over sucker bets.

Jaded: Yes, let's also pretend that the greatest SUCCESSES in human history (agriculture, the arts, the sciences, modern medicine) were also not due to an "an arrogant trust in human achievement." History is full of people trying and succeeding, trying and failing, or trying and hitting a spot somewhere in the middle. Human achievement, like it or not, is what has brought the human race into the modern age. Smallpox and polio were not cured by people joining hands in a prayer circle. They were cured by hard working scientists doing science.

While you have a point that societies flounder when the "state" exercises too much control, that's an axiom that applies equally well to modern totalitarian governments as it does to medieval (Christian) and current (Islamist) theocracies. Try to make the claim that the only successful societies in history have been the god-soaked ones, and I think you'll find that people more knowledgeable in history will correct you. Whatever successes those societies have had have been largely independent of the prevailing religious leadership. Just ask Galileo and Giordano Bruno.

In any case, it's funny to see believers get so riled up by a simple cartoon. Maybe this one hit you guys a little too close to home, eh?

Martin - August 24, 2008

Phil: one of us would have to do a sex-change… I call dibs!

Martin: Thank you for replying to those comments – I was going to, but you did it more eloquently than I could have bothered to! ^^

I understand you co-host the Atheist Experience (which I recently discovered), and I have to say that I admire how you guys manage to keep a level head in situations where I’d just be sitting there blinking, amazed by people’s stupidity. Keep up the good work!

jakob burrows - August 24, 2008

Forgive me for not being meticulous in my spelling of words while commenting on a cartoon.

Martin- I am not saying that human achievement has not accomplished anything. I don't want to start another debate where both sides talk past each other. I am asking for atheists to seriously ponder this huge realm of other people who exist in the world instead of flippantly dismissing them.

That being said, my use of the word 'arrogant' modified the word 'trust' NOT 'human achievement'. That makes it a critique of all institutions; institutions of learning and institutions of religion. So I guess that means you missed my point. I guess that is a lesson for me to communicate more clearly.

For some reason people seem to think that Christians walk around wishing there was no polio vaccine or that we were still riding around on horses or something. As a matter of fact, life was easier back then when books were printed by hand and cost a fortune, or when tools weren't standardized, or when leaders were given power because of their rhetorical skills...oh wait that one still happens. But seriously, is that your impression of people of faith?

I am just asking first for more willingness to understand each other. That begins with athiests and christians alike suspending their prejudices of each other and not acting like one is an infidel-nihilist and the other is a bigotted fundamentalist. I imagine that many of you have bents toward the scientific fields of study and will contribute toward human achievement sometime in your lifetime. One thing that I would suggest though from a philosophical position is that that achievement then has little value without a metaphysical framework to give it any. So to progress this conversation, I am honestly curious to know from your perspective, what value is their in scientific achievement without God? Because somewhere down the line we have to bust out Malthus, and get into discussions about human suffering, and government's ability to make technology accessible, which so far hasn't happened.

Moderator- it would be nice to know how many characters I have even though this isn't the place for debates.

Jaded - August 25, 2008

Also, I wanted to say that I think the misunderstanding between Christian culture and non-christian culture is largely the fault of Christians who withdrew from the public education system during the period of desegregation here in America. It is my personal opinion that it are those unifiers and diplomats of the public square who are the ones with the most public influence and those hate-flingers just create more problems for people. People like Sam Harris, who's book I'm reading who enable whole groups of people to associate religion with terror DIRECTLY to not help society. I have read stuff by Christopher Hitchens often and find myself really appreciating what he has to say, but I don't either side in this discussion is crossing lines with the humility that they ought to. Both sides should reason with each other with conviction, but not prejudice.

Jaded - August 25, 2008

Jaded,
We create our own meaning.
Meaning is not valid simply because it is given by a third party. If space aliens tampered with the hominid line in order to create better slaves, and have yet to come and collect, that too would give us meaning. Though not one we'd want to accept. Regardless, we either create our own meaning or take on that of another if we are incapable of creating our own, but in every case it is up to us to choose what gives us meaning and what doesn't.

Also, simply because we die doesn't steal the meaning we have at present. Many things in life are meaningful even though they are temporary. Working on political campaigns and raising children, for example.

And lastly, our greatest blunders were not committed because the people who acted did so with too much reason, rationality and good will. They happened because new unquestionable dogmas were created. Lysenko's mythical biology, China's dogmatic communism, and the "necrocracy" now ran by Kim Jong-il, (to only touch on the countries you mentioned) are just non-abrahamic versions of the same insanity. But they most certainly are not the result of placing undue trust in the proven achievements of humanity. So don't get touchy when someone takes issue with the main perpetrator of such irrational thinking: Religion. And don't attempt to project religions faults onto the shoulders of those who advocate reason and rationality.

Michael X - August 25, 2008

Martin,
You may want to read my earlier comment again. I never said anything about Pascals Wager. I make no claim that you should hedge your bet and believe in God. Let me try it this way:
1.In fairy tells people live happily ever after.
2. In a reality with no God/Gods people do not live happily ever after. All people eventually die.
3. In a reality with a/many God/Gods all people eventually die, but then some/all people may live happily ever after.

Kenny - August 25, 2008

That was just awesome. I've ready many, many retellings of fairytales, but I do believe this was the best! Salud!

Dana Hunter - August 25, 2008

Your fairy tale about religion and capitalism lacks a good reading on Max Weber. Enjoy.

Jayr Magave - August 25, 2008

What's your point, Kenny?

David Marjanovic - August 25, 2008

>>3. In a reality with a/many God/Gods all people eventually die, but then some/all people may live happily ever after.

This "reality" is a fairy tale. What's your point?

ben - August 25, 2008

Well I thought I had a point, but that is because I was mistaken on the meaning of "lived happily ever after". I thought it meant to be happy forever, but upon further research I now know that it is a hyperbolic phrase meaning to be happy for the rest of your life. Please ignore my earlier comments as they make no sense. Sorry if my comments caused any confusion.

Kenny - August 25, 2008

No Kenny its cool, you don't have to go with what the dictionary or history dictates you can create your own meaning.

Jaded - August 25, 2008

Thanks Jaded ;)

Kenny - August 26, 2008

Yeah it's cool Kenny. That's what all the religions popped up from anyway, isn't it? People picking and placing varying emphasis on all the different parts of religious books to suit the point they feel they need to make? Yeah, go ahead and create your own meanings, everybody. Start a new branch from Christianity, see if you can outnumber all these thick Mormons.

I just Loled - November 9, 2008.

I love your work. Gotta love the ending tag: Just in case the beans represent religion. :) I might have to post you on my blog. godlessblogger.com

godlessblogger - January 26, 2009.

I didn't do it. Am I the greatest thing sinced sliced bread? What was great before that? Don't say Jesus... Unless you mean it.

Death - February 24, 2009.